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Author Topic: New U.S. News law school rankings are out  (Read 1008 times)
Anne
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« on: April 14, 2010, 09:08:18 PM »

U.S. News & World Report has put out its 2010 law school rankings out today: http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-law-schools/rankings

Some schools went up, others went down, and the good ol' traditional mainstays (*cough* Yale *cough*) stayed right where they've always been.
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« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2010, 07:17:37 AM »

I just looked to through the rankings..  I can't believe so many schools claimed 99%+ employment upon 9 mo. of graduation..   BS!!!  Curses
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« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2010, 02:08:19 PM »

This could be an LSAT LR survey question!  Is the limited information provided in those figures reliable? The schools report their numbers to the magazine. My presumption would be that employment surveys are returned on a voluntary basis at most of these schools, and that perhaps 99% of respondents had secured employment.

What type of student would more likely respond to such an employment survey? The one who is psyched about having received a great job offer, or the one who is still looking? With that type of self-selecting sample, we shouldn't be surprised to find that most of those who responded to the survey had already secured employment.
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Anne
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« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2010, 04:21:59 PM »

From the U.S. News law rankings methodology page (http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/best-law-schools/2010/04/15/the-law-school-rankings-methodology.html):

"Employment Rates for Graduates:The employment rates for 2008 graduating class determine success in this category. Graduates who are working or pursuing graduate degrees are considered employed. Employment rates are measured at graduation (.04 weight ) and nine months after graduation (.14 weight). For the nine-month employment rate, 25 percent of those whose status is unknown are counted as employed. Those who are unemployed and not seeking jobs are excluded from the calculations and are not counted as unemployed. Those who are unemployed and seeking work are counted as unemployed in the calculations of the employment rates."

Here's what gets me:

1. "Graduates who are working or pursuing graduate degrees are considered employed."
2. "For the nine-month employment rate, 25 percent of those whose status is unknown are counted as employed."

In other words, these numbers are not in any way accurate. Notice, too, that they don't distinguish between employed at LAW jobs and employed at ANY job. They also don't differentiate between PAYING jobs and UNPAID internships. So yes, if I've graduated from law school 9 months ago, went back to school (again) to get another degree, and am employed as a live-in nanny with a family in exchange for room and board, then I technically--technically--count as employed, even though I'm not able to pay my law school loans and am as far removed from the law profession as I can be.

Truth be told, I hate the U.S. News rankings. They value ridiculous things (Number of books in the library? Really?), and are completely based on subjective and non-specific elements. If you really want to see how a school is perceived and where it "ranks," then ask the employers you'd like to work for which schools they find to produce the best lawyers, and where they like to hire from. A glowing endorsement of a school from a potential employer is the best kind of ranking.
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« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2010, 01:09:09 PM »

It seems like the rankings just reflect common opinion, and then they rigged the numbers so the names people think should be on top are on top. Of course more Harvard grads get employed because people already think Harvard is great.

It all seems arbitrary.
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« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2010, 05:41:12 PM »

Thanks for posting this Anne!
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Anne
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« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2010, 05:03:33 PM »

It seems like the rankings just reflect common opinion, and then they rigged the numbers so the names people think should be on top are on top. Of course more Harvard grads get employed because people already think Harvard is great.

It all seems arbitrary.

A couple of good points:

1. "It seems like the rankings just reflect common opinion." I would definitely agree with that. If you take a look at the methodology for the rankings, 40% of the total numerical value assigned to a school's ranking is based on subjective responses by peers and professionals. They're essentially asked to rank programs on a scale of 1 to 5, 1 being worst and 5 being best. Not only is that an incredibly narrow scale (what happens when a school is a 4.5 or  3.75 in someone's mind? It would probably work much better if asked to rank from 1-10 or even 1-100), but it is also incredibly subjective. Although the survey asks that you do not provide a numerical ranking for schools you don't know, who's to say that you won't put a school down as a "1" because you've heard other people speak disparagingly of the quality of the professors or curriculum? From the US News Law Ranking Methodology:

Peer Assessment Score (.25) In the fall of 2009, law school deans, deans of academic affairs, chairs of faculty appointments, and the most recently tenured faculty members were asked to rate programs on a scale from marginal (1) to outstanding (5). Those individuals who did not know enough about a school to evaluate it fairly were asked to mark "don't know." A school's score is the average of all the respondents who rated it. Responses of "don't know" counted neither for nor against a school. About 65 percent of those surveyed responded.

Assessment Score by Lawyers/Judges (.15) In the fall of 2009, legal professionals, including the hiring partners of law firms, state attorneys general, and selected federal and state judges, were asked to rate programs on a scale from marginal (1) to outstanding (5). Those individuals who did not know enough about a school to evaluate it fairly were asked to mark "don't know." A school's score is the average of all the respondents who rated it. Responses of "don't know" counted neither for nor against a school. About 21 percent of those surveyed responded. The two most recent years lawyers' and judges' surveys were averaged and are weighted by .15.


The fact that almost half of the ranking is based on such incredibly subjective ground is a little scary, if you ask me.

2. "Of course more Harvard grads get employed because people already think Harvard is great." That's actually another great point when stretched out to include all law schools. The Top 14, or T14, schools on the U.S. News rankings haven't changed since time immemorial. Why? Because people's opinions (which are based on rankings) carry on from year to year. Rankings influence opinions, which influence rankings, which influence opinions, and so on. I wouldn't exactly call it a vicious circle, but I would certainly call it a self-fulfilling prophecy. It boils down to a "Yale is #1 because why wouldn't Yale be #1? It's been #1 for years, it must be good, I've heard it's good, so it must still be the best" mentality which, while it benefits the schools in the T14, it keeps other schools locked at lower rankings. Of course, this is not to say that any of the schools in the T14 don't deserve the rank they get (they are all undoubtedly good schools); however, it seems a little ridiculous to essentially have a lockdown on a ranking simply because of longevity and seniority. With factors so subjective, though, it's hard to imagine these popular opinions changing.

There are so many other things that need to be taken into consideration when deciding if a law school is good for the applicant: location, regionality, transferability of degree, alumni connections and happiness, staff, availability and openness of professors, variety of courses, etc.--and so many of these aspects are not even touched on in the rankings. It's why rankings, while they can certainly be a part of the decision-making process, should never be used as the end-all, be-all in law school selection. Not too many applicants veer away from them or consider those alternate aspects, though.

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