Letters of Rec

[Jack Daws]

I'm not applying to law school until next fall, but does anyone have any suggestions for letters of recommendation? I'm thinking I have a prof I can ask that will give me a good one, but for a second and third I could go with my internship boss from last summer, my manager at Best Buy (don't laugh--it's a job!), or the CEO at my Dad's company (a Fortune 500). I think they will all do a pretty good job.   

[EarlCat]

Strangely enough, the manager at BestBuy is probably better for a rec letter than a CEO.  What you really need in a rec letter is a statement that gives the admissions people a glimpse at you the person so they can feel comfortable putting you in the classroom.  So unless you're close friends with this CEO and interact with him regularly, choose someone else.

[Anne]

  Earl has a great point, and one that's worth expanding on. I've worked with a number of students (I'm an admissions counselor with a large test prep firm) that have committed the cardinal sin of choosing title over substance, or thinking that anyone can write an LOR as long as it's positive. BIG MISTAKE. When you're dealing with letters of recommendation, it's not someone's title or how nice they are that's important; what's important is how well the person can speak to your abilities, traits, personality, and law school potential. Your dad's company's CEO might have an impressive title within an impressive company, but if he can't speak about you using personal, specific, anecdotal examples, the LOR you'll get from him is likely to be disregarded as an attempt to inject "impressive title filler" into your application. If the CEO knows your dad, but not you, then steer clear--and if you think he or she knows you, then ask yourself how well. If they don't know you WELL, then you don't want them speaking on your behalf. Your manager at Best Buy will be a much better source for a recommendation--he or she works with you on a regular basis, can speak about your work ethic, and can provide specific examples about their personal interaction with you.

Here's the deal with LORs: They need to be personal (as in, the person writing them is someone who knows you WELL, someone you interact with on more than just an impersonal, perfunctory basis), they need to be specific (i.e., the person needs to be able to talk about particular instances they've shared with you that back up their statements about you), and they need to be anecdotal (which by necessity implies that they need to know you and have experienced things with you). When you approach someone who knows you only vaguely, you run the risk of getting this in your letter: "Jim is a very nice young man. I never heard anything negative said about him. He always turned in his papers on time, and my Teaching Assistant never had any complaints about his discussion section participation." (And, yes, I've seen multiple versions of that letter-killing statement multiple times). That's a huge red flag--it tells the Admissions Committee that you've essentially either picked someone for their title (and what you thought that title would do for you in the admissions process), or that you just picked someone at random, not carding WHAT they said about you. Neither one is a good impression to leave with AdComs. What you ACTUALLY want is someone saying is, "Jim is a tireless academic. I recall the fall of his senior year when we worked together on his senior thesis, and he went above the call of duty by researching primary source material on the Sioux Indians, going so far as to travel across the country to verify his research. It was incredible to watch the passion with which he worked and it was a privilege to work with him." The only way you'll get that last statement (or something even remotely like it), though, is if your recommender truly KNOWS you. So keep that in mind.  And good luck!

[Jack Daws]

Awesome guys, thanks! I don't think I'll have anyone say I traveled across the country to interview Sioux Indians, but hey, I think they will say a few good things about me. I'll kill the CEO dude from the list and decide between my intern people who I really liked or BB where I really enjoy what I do.

Muchas gracias, this made it easier!

[Anne]

No problem! Let me know if you've got any other questions--I'm always happy to help!

[Jack Daws]

No problem! Let me know if you've got any other questions--I'm always happy to help!

Well, here's another question: Can I tell them what to write, or is that too much?

[Anne]

Can I tell them what to write, or is that too much?

That's actually a great question. You shouldn't tell them exactly what to write (after all, it's their recommendation letter), but you can definitely give them ideas and point them in the direction that you want your letters to go. You should never just go up to your recommender, ask them to write a letter, and then leave them to their own devices. That's a sure-fire way to end up with vague or generalized letters that don't really complement the rest of your application. Before you meet with your recommenders, do the following:

1. Sit down and think about what you would like your recommender to talk about. Do you want them to talk about your classroom performance? Their relationship with you? Your academic achievements? Your extracurricular involvement? By thinking about this, you will be able to ask the recommender for a very specific kind of letter. Think about it. Which request is easier to write about: "In my recommendation letters, I would really like to address my scholastic achievements. Would it be possible for you to talk about about my academic performance, in particular my senior thesis?" or "Could you write me a law school recommendation letter?" The first one is much easier to write about. And the easier a letter is to write, the more likely your recommender will get it done (and the more likely it will be done on time).

2. Revise your résumé. Give it to your recommenders when you ask them to write the letter; they'll then have a quick refresher of your credentials, which will help them to write the letter as well as give them points of reference.

3. Think about specific instances that you've shared with your recommender that you would like mentioned in the letter, and bring them up. If you can't think of any significant experiences you've shared, then perhaps you shouldn't ask them to write you a letter. As I said above, you want to make sure your recommender knows you well and wants to see you succeed. If they don't know you well (and you don't know them well), then you should reconsider asking them for a letter. The idea behind remembering specific events and reminding your recommender of them is to enhance the personal and anecdotal qualities of the letter, which will in turn increase their validity and strength within your application.

After you've done these three things, go and talk to your recommender about writing a letter for you. As I mentioned previously, you don't want to tell them EXACTLY what to write, but give them ideas, point them in the direction you want them to go in, and don't be afraid to tell them that you're open to working together as they craft the letter. Provide them with your contact info, and make yourself available to them. Recommenders appreciate the pointers and specificity--you're making their life easier. In this way, you can influence and direct the content of your letter, without actually demanding that it be written in a certain way.

[Jack Daws]

I understand. One of my recommenders is a few hours away, so I think what I will do is write down all the stuff I would say and put it in a letter for him. I'll then give that letter to the other recommenders after I tell them the same things, kind of like a followup. Does that sound smart?

Thanks--this is really helping me out.

[Amby]

What are you supposed to do if you don't really have anyone that you think will be a good person to write the letter? I don't know any professors real good and I hate my job.

I'm screwed.

[Jack Daws]

What are you supposed to do if you don't really have anyone that you think will be a good person to write the letter? I don't know any professors real good and I hate my job.

I'm screwed.

Dude, you are screwed. Get a life! Lol

I'd say make some friends in high places real fast, and impress the hell out of them.

[Anne]

One of my recommenders is a few hours away, so I think what I will do is write down all the stuff I would say and put it in a letter for him. I'll then give that letter to the other recommenders after I tell them the same things, kind of like a followup. Does that sound smart?

That is definitely a good idea, particularly if the recommender lives far away. Make sure you start off with a phone call, mention you'll send him some information to get him started, and then follow up with an email or phone call after you send it. My only suggestion in this case would be to make sure the letter you send him doesn't sound like a ready-made recommendation letter. The last thing you want (particularly if you're going to be sending this same "info letter" to all your potential recommenders) is all of the letters sounding the same. In every case, you should do a little background investigation on your recommenders, and tailor these info letters to each of them. Ideally, each of them should address different parts of your character and you should have individual experiences with each, so don't just send a cookie-cutter missive. Just like you research schools, research your LOR writers, and help them individualize their letters with the brainstorming info you provide them.

What are you supposed to do if you don't really have anyone that you think will be a good person to write the letter? I don't know any professors real good and I hate my job.

I'm screwed.

I'd say make some friends in high places real fast, and impress the hell out of them.

Amby, I wouldn't say you're screwed, but you definitely need to think outside the box a little. For starters, you don't necessarily have to get your recommendation letters from professors. Also, just because you hate your job, that doesn't mean you're not good at it (and your boss may not hate you, even if you don't like them very much). Here are some suggestions for people you could ask for a letter:

1. Your TA. Most students don't really know their professors very well, but they know their TA--and their TA knows them, and can speak to their academic abilities.
2. Your boss. As I said, even if you hate your job, that doesn't mean it hates you back. Sit down and really think about your job performance, and consider if your boss could speak to your work ethic (unless, of course, you hate your job so much that you don't do it very well--then having your boss talk about your work ethic might not be such a good idea).
3. Do you volunteer? If you do, your volunteer director would be a good person to consider as a potential recommender.
4. Do you play a sport? If so, your coach would be a great LOR source--they may not be able to speak about your academic abilities, but they can talk about your mental toughness, your physical prowess, and your ability to both lead and be a part of a team.
5. Former bosses. Did you leave past jobs (no more than 2 years past) on good terms? Then those old bosses might be a good place to seek out professional recommendations.
6. Have you ever interned or been a camp counselor? As long as these experiences are in the relatively close past (again, no more than 2 years, tops), you can seek out your immediate superiors and ask them if they wouldn't mind writing an LOR for you.

As to what Jack said about making friends in high places fast and impressing the hell out of them--it sounds like a good idea on the surface, but it's an oxymoron in LOR Land. Any people with whom you are "friends" with for only one or two months will only be able to, at best, write a superficial letter (likely filled with generalities) that doesn't speak much to either your character or abilities. Instead of fixating on making new acquaintances that could write a letter, focus on seeking out past relationships that can truly write something worthwhile. Good luck!

[soumaguha]

How big a role does the reputataion of your college play in case of LOR,like am from an ordinary engineering college from India .So my professors are also not big shots..and then i hardly had much closeness with any professor..Now i am working,bt cant ask for LOR from my boss, he doesnot want me to leave the current project,so in any case if he knows i am planning for higher studies,he will be fuming.
So In GR888 Confusion, about my LORs ...how to manage..Any Advices???

[Anne]

How big a role does the reputataion of your college play in case of LOR,like am from an ordinary engineering college from India .So my professors are also not big shots..and then i hardly had much closeness with any professor..Now i am working,bt cant ask for LOR from my boss, he doesnot want me to leave the current project,so in any case if he knows i am planning for higher studies,he will be fuming.
So In GR888 Confusion, about my LORs ...how to manage..Any Advices???

Unfortunately, you're going to have to get LORs from SOMEone that knows you either academically or professionally. The good news, though, is that the reputation of your college doesn't really play a HUGE role as long as the content of the letter is specific, personal, and positive. Schools aren't really going to judge the institution where your recommender is currently teaching or has taught; they are more interested in what they had to say about you than the ranking of the school they are at or how much of a "big shot" they happen (or not happen) to be.

If you weren't very close with your professors and you didn't establish relationships with them then you're going to have to start now, and remind them of who you were and how you did in their class. Set up meetings with them, take them some of your old schoolwork or papers, tell them what your educational plans are and where you want to go, and explain that you need their academic endorsement as part of the application process. This will also be made simpler if you haven't been out of school for too long--if you have, then you're going to have to work even harder to re-establish those relationships.

Be careful that you don't opt for letters from people that can't speak to your work ethic, academic ability, or willingness to learn. Many people make the mistake of thinking that ANY positive letter is one they can use for a law school application, and that is definitely not the case. Law schools want some insight into how you will do at their school, and they can only get that from a letter discussing your intelligence, drive, and academic potential.

If you can't get a letter from teachers or your boss, I would also recommend looking into any volunteer work that you do--often, the head of the organization you volunteer for will have some good insight into your work ethic and problem-solving skills, which can definitely translate itself into a good letter. Keep in mind, though, that many schools require TWO LORs, so you may still have to foster relationships with your old profs to get two letters.

[Strangelove]

So its ok to ask people for rec's even if they didn't know you in the classroom??? I thought they all had to be from teachers.

[Anne]

So its ok to ask people for rec's even if they didn't know you in the classroom??? I thought they all had to be from teachers.

Hey Strangelove! Your question actually revolves around a common misconception, and one that I am happy to dispel.

Although most applications will tell you that they require academic recommendations, sometimes it is impossible for an applicant to obtain an academic rec (for a variety of reasons: they've been out of school for more than five years, they never developed any sort of meaningful relationship with their profs., they didn't do that well in school and don't think they would be a good rec, etc.). In those cases, a lot of applicants freak out--and that's when I get the panicked phone calls asking me for advice and wailing that they will never get into law school. Here's the deal: You can--and will, all things being equal--get into law school, even if you don't have an academic rec. This is why: The reason law schools ask for academic recommendations is because they want to get some third-party feedback on your academic potential, your willingness to learn, your openness to intellectual topics, your work ethic, and your overall interest in scholarly pursuits. Now, obviously, a recommendation from a professor is the best and most efficient way to get that. However (and this is a BIG however), it's not the only place to get that.

There are tons of people outside of an academic setting that can speak to all of those traits in person; you just have to take the time to think of it first. For example, take you boss. You may not think your boss can speak to any of those traits, but he/she most certainly can. Your boss can speak to your work ethic, your problem-solving skills, and your willingness to learn. How about a volunteer coordinator where you do some community service work? They could very likely speak to your academic potential and overall interest in scholarly pursuits (i.e., "Jimmy was instrumental in creating our scuba diving in-camp certification--when none of us had the expertise to navigate the paperwork and licensing to create our own program, he took it upon himself to read all the relevant statutes, obtain the necessary forms, and talk to all the right people. It was thousands of pages of reading and many tens of hour of work, but he got it done, and done well.").

Of course, professor recommendations are always best; nonetheless, don't let the fact that someone isn't a teacher deviate you from asking them for a rec. Approach them and ask them if they feel they could knowledgeably speak to any of the traits I listed above. You'd be surprised at the stories they'll be able to tell that will benefit you come law school admissions time.