Is Law School a Losing Game? (NY Times article)

[Excelsior]

Interesting article...
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html?src=me&ref=homepage

[LawSchoolGuy]

That's gotta be the most depressing article I've read this year. Granted, it's only January 10, but I've been reading Tolstoy, so that's saying something.

[StrawMan]

Yeah, it's depressing. But here's a caveat - if you went to a 4th Tier law school expecting to land a $160,000 job after graduation, you just didn't do your homework. There are still good jobs out there and yes, most will go to graduates of Top-10 law schools. The market is saturated with law schools, which, let's face it, are cash-cows for their respective universities. But if you got a good GPA in college and obtain a top-1% LSAT score that will get you into a national school, chances are you'll be fine (as far as getting that BigLaw job is concerned). Whether you'll be happy doing it is another story.

Moral of the story is: if you really want to go to law school, make sure you know what you're getting yourself into. Then ace the LSAT :-)

[Ashley O]

There have been a lot of articles like this in the last six months. I'm surprised any lawyers at all are still working

It seems like some people enter law school and think that ok, I'm done, here's comes the golden salary. Just like with any academic pursuit, where you go to school matters, and how you perform in school matters. You think if you graduate at the top of NYU that you can't get a job? Nope, those people are fine. It's people like the guy in this article that went to Thomas Jefferson that can't jobs. And it seems like he might have brought some of this on himself: he didn't really have any idea what kind of school it was, he probably didn't work hard because he wanted the chill lifestyle in San Diego where the school was located, he decided that adding thousands of dollars in debt in order to study months in France and Italy was a good idea, and he argued with a manager at a company-wide law firm lunch causing him to lose his law job.

As with any recession, some job areas are hurt more than others, but there is also still room for people who are capable and talented. Law school is a the right option for a lot of people, and not the right option for others. You have to do your due diligence and go in with your eyes wide open. 

[LSAT Eliminator]

+1 Ashley and Straw Man

Btw, nice name Straw Man! I assume that's a reference the logical fallacy, and not some type of character assessment

[StrawMan]

"“It’s a prestige thing,” he says. “I’m an attorney. All of my friends see me as a person they look up to. They understand I’m in a lot of debt, but I’ve done something they feel they could never do and the respect and admiration is important.” "

Seriously? The dude couldn't find a decent job, spent $250,000 in loans going to a 4th-Tier law school, and is still happy with his decision because of the "prestige" of being an attorney? There is nothing prestigious about spending your day in a windowless room doing document review at $20/hr. If you factor in the interest on those loans along with the opportunity cost of forfeited income (in law school and later), that "prestige thing" is a really, really expensive proposition. It's precisely that kind of mentality that gets people into trouble in the first place - not being able to do a proper cost/benefit analysis ahead of time.

[Pheezer]

How about his final quote: “And like, this debt of mine is just sort of, it’s a little illusory. I feel like at some point, I’ll negotiate it away, or they won’t collect it.”

Is he stoned?


Seriously.

[StrawMan]

I am beginning to think that he is.

Btw, check out Subprime JD (which was highlighted in the NYT article). As a law school student, a blogger on Subprime JD observes that the more other students owe in debt "the less distress they exhibit." What causes this "almost delusional state"? Cognitive dissonance. That is, a "societal conditioning that a lawyer cannot be a failure. Those in fact, were the exact words relayed by Mr. Wallerstein in the NYT interview." The Subprime blogger later elaborates: "surely the law schools are to blame as they post fraudulent data. However, some personal responsibility lies with the decision as in the end the ramifications are life altering for the person who signed the dotted line."

[LSAT Eliminator]

They think that, by definition a lawyer is successful, so the rest is irrelevant.

Problem is, that allows a Cooley grad to equate themselves with say, a Boalt grad. And that is delusional thinking.

[Anne]

The more I read this article, the angrier I get. Not just at the law school (who certainly deserve a lot of the blame), or U.S. News (which is just as guilty as the law schools in perpetuating an erroneous belief that law school is the "golden ticket"), but at the masses of unthinking "Wallersteins" that go to any old law school because they think it's a cash cow. They do no research, have no idea of the costs involved, don't know what they'll have to pay in student loans, do not look at the job market (national or regional), and then flip out when they can't find jobs after they attended Cooley and have a 2.0 GPA. GIVE ME A BREAK. I hate to say it, but they get all that's coming to them. If they are foolish enough to sign their lives away for a promise, then they deserve to be exactly where they are. Even more infuriating is Wallerstein's reaction to the whole thing. He takes no responsibility for his actions whatsoever. He just keeps waiting for a magic wand to appear and wave it all away.

“It could be worse,” he says. “It’s not like they can put me jail.”

Maybe they should. Just like the law schools deserve to be sued for the false figures they put in front of applicants, perhaps the fools that sign on the dotted line and then shirk their financial responsibilities should also receive punishment more tangible than simply letters demanding payment. All sides of this issue are to blame: Either they are liars, or they are cretins. Neither one deserves the slack they are receiving.

Phew.

</rant>

[Ashley O]

There have been a lot of articles like this in the last six months. I'm surprised any lawyers at all are still working

It seems like some people enter law school and think that ok, I'm done, here's comes the golden salary. Just like with any academic pursuit, where you go to school matters, and how you perform in school matters. You think if you graduate at the top of NYU that you can't get a job? Nope, those people are fine. It's people like the guy in this article that went to Thomas Jefferson that can't jobs. And it seems like he might have brought some of this on himself: he didn't really have any idea what kind of school it was, he probably didn't work hard because he wanted the chill lifestyle in San Diego where the school was located, he decided that adding thousands of dollars in debt in order to study months in France and Italy was a good idea, and he argued with a manager at a company-wide law firm lunch causing him to lose his law job.

As with any recession, some job areas are hurt more than others, but there is also still room for people who are capable and talented. Law school is a the right option for a lot of people, and not the right option for others. You have to do your due diligence and go in with your eyes wide open.  

Let's also not forget that he took out $15k in loans to study for the bar. How can you even do that? It's like he looked at all these loans as a sort of vacation plan while he "studied" away for his success-bestowing degree.  

Yes, I replied to myself, lol

[MEMEMEME]

What an idiot, "I went to law school and took out $250K in debt so I could have prestige." He will think it's cute until he wants to buy a house. Speaking of this and employment statistics, what about ABA's statistics? I mean, for each school it states the percentage employed in what like "private practice." Do law schools really try to say that waitresses are employed in private practice? It seems a bit hard to swallow.

[Jeffort]

I think the focus on and harsh judgments against Mr. Wallerstein in this thread are misplaced.  Very little of the long article is about him; it only included a few (likely without full context) 'juicy' Wallerstein quotes.  Chastising him excessively and implying that maybe he should be locked up seems akin to shooting the messenger.

The article is an indictment of the current state of academic processes and legal profession systems that are in the business of 'manufacturing lawyers'.

Anne, I'm a bit shocked by your rant!  I doubt that Mr. W put in years of his life studying and jumping through hoops, racked up a mountain of debt that put himself in his current situation for 'prestige' bragging rights amongst acquaintances with the intention to shirk the debt.  Yeah, based on his quotes it is reasonable to conclude that he has an ego/attitude.  So what?  That is the norm with people that compete well and succeed in the law school game and is perhaps a necessary condition in order to succeed professionally and financially in the legal field.

Let's also not forget that he took out $15k in loans to study for the bar. How can you even do that? It's like he looked at all these loans as a sort of vacation plan while he "studied" away for his success-bestowing degree.  

Taking out $15k in additional loans in order to study for, take (and hopefully pass) the bar exam is not extreme or unheard of At ALL!  To have a chance of getting a legal job and going into paid law practice you have to immediately prep for the bar exam right after graduating from LS.  Check out how much bar exam prep courses charge!  LSAT prep classes are pocket change in comparison.  The BarBri bar prep class for the CA bar exam is $3800 plus additional deposits and fees!!!  and the class/bar prep is a full time ~60-80 hr a week job in itself, leaving little time to be out earning a paycheck.    

The main thing I think many disgruntled aspiring lawyers can legitimately be blamed for is believing that LS is a secure 'get rich' career track since just a few days of google research easily dispels that myth.  However, blaming people that end up in an uncertain mess with mounds of debt and difficult employment prospects because they trusted the published stats and promises from the academic/legal institutions and put in the study time/work is akin to blaming to the victim.

[Ashley O]

Hmm, we must not have read the same article. Or, did you read the article at all? Wallerstein is the lead character in this narrative, and he is featured heavily:

  1st Page: He is the article lead, and is discussed in the first 5 paragraphs
  2nd page: He is in 7 more paragraphs
  3rd page: He is in 2 paragraphs, and 2 others are about Thomas Jefferson law where he went
  4th page: He is in 7 paragraphs
  5th page: He is in 4 paragraphs, and mentioned in others by name
  6th page: He is in 0 paragraphs, but the first 3 paragraphs are devoted to discussing the place where he now works
  7th page: He is in 6 of the 7 paragraphs, and closes the article

So, he featured more than just a little bit, and there is certainly far more about him than just a "few" juicy quotes. He is the lead and close of the article, and the glue that binds numerous other sections.

The point is that as a representative of this particular problem, Wallerstein is maybe the worst one they could have chosen. And, now the article features a correction indicating that Bohn, the other lawyer discussed, didn't get a Columbia law degree after all (he went to Florida), and that his debt came from undergrad, not law school. This isn't about killing the messenger; it's about showing how the featured person in this article really can't be seen as a representative of this problem at all.

I'll get to your Bar course comment in just a moment...

[Ashley O]

Taking out $15k in additional loans in order to study for, take (and hopefully pass) the bar exam is not extreme or unheard of At ALL!  To have a chance of getting a legal job and going into paid law practice you have to immediately prep for the bar exam right after graduating from LS.  Check out how much bar exam prep courses charge!  LSAT prep classes are pocket change in comparison.  The BarBri bar prep class for the CA bar exam is $3800 plus additional deposits and fees!!!  and the class/bar prep is a full time ~60-80 hr a week job in itself, leaving little time to be out earning a paycheck.    

I'm going to have to beg to differ, mainly because I think your math makes no fiscal sense. Let's say BarBri is $4k (and we'll set aside the fact that many people pay those deposit fees while in law school, often before their third year). Since Wallerstein claims to have borrowed $15k for bar preparation, that leaves him $11k for everything else in his life. Let's say he studied 2 months. That leaves him $11k to live on during those two months, or $5500 a month. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Mr. Wallerstein must have been living quite well if that was the case. Certainly better than any "student" I know. Even at 3 months of studying, he still had just under $3700 month free cash to spend. After room and board, there's still plenty for living well. The point is that Wallerstein treated his law school experience as if it was an open checking account, and now, somehow, he thinks he doesn't have to pay for it all. Sure, he can spend $15k on bar prep, but he didn't have to, and that's just one more reason he is a terrible example of the problems in the legal job market.